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  Topic: Capoeira Angola so tem 9 golpes
  2006-06-07 23:41:36
This came up when I was talking to Amanhecer at the hui, thought others may also be interested.

According to Mestre Joao Pequeno in his short book "Uma Vida De Capoeira", there are only 9 golpes in Capoeira Angola:
-Meia Lua
-Rabo de Arraia
-Corta Capim

This probably seems like a very short list, although it's worth mentioning that in the book, Mestre does say that the list could be multiplied by two or three because some of the movements have several versions; eg "Meia Lua, de frente e de costa", "Au - que voce pode dar de varios tipos (Au - that you can do of various types). Still, it's a very short list when compared with a Mestre Pastinha quote from a book that Bichu Grilo has, something along the lines of "it is not possible to count the number of attacks that Capoeira Angola has". Julian, can you dig out the book and post the quote?

Thoughts anyone?
  2006-06-14 13:48:00
Ok so no-body is replying so I may as well make this page look some-what interesting by adding something to what Zigue Zague said.

9 attacks doesn't seem like much of a vocabulary,But it's probably right. What about the attack when you poke your opponent in the eyes, is that a Golpe? (Nah it's just a dirty trick)

I remember one of the Martial arts books I read mentioning that capoeira has less than 50 kinds of movements. This is probably in reference to including the style of Regional as well. However I also remember reading a capoeira book explaining that the number of movements and possibilities in capoeira is infinite, From one movement you have 3 other options and from each of those options you have a further 6.
I think it went something like that but I can't say I know exactly what it said because I don't have the book with me to quote it from.
Anyways, I only posted this so that people will hopefully read it and this page of the web-site will look alive.

Have fun folks.
  2006-06-15 19:57:51
capoeira yeah!!
  2006-06-15 21:13:04
Yeah let�s get some responses up in here.

I think the main thing about Capoeira is that there are no rules, no hard and fast lines. There is no black and white answer.

Capoeira is an evolving art, sport, religion, way of life... Joao Grande is right and so is Pastinha and so is Feticeiro and anyone else with an opinion. No-one is wrong but they do have different points of view, as will every other Capoeirista that enters the roda. The rights and wrongs are relative, some rodas you must wear whites, some rodas you must wear yellow and black others it doesn�t matter, and others singlets and shorts are the way to go.

I think the important thing is to remember what old Mestres say, and use their knowledge. They have lived a long time and seen a lot of changes and need to be respected and the knowledge they have built on. But Capoeira is not static. Capoeira is young new and evolving as we speak. I think it is a very brave Capoeirista that draws lines between what movements constitute capoeira. And a very very brave person who draws lines which exclude. Poking someone in the eyes is a dirty trick yes, but if life happens in a roda then it becomes part of the jogo and possibly Capoeira as well.

So basically you have the luxury, in Aotearoa, of taking all the rules available and picking and choosing which ones make sense to you, although that is more difficult than it sounds.

Go on tell me I�m wrong and have bad grammar!

  2006-06-15 22:59:04
Testing 1# 2# Testing 1# 2# 3#
  2006-06-15 22:59:48
Oi Tudo Bem
  2006-06-16 18:04:26
Feiticeiro, the quote you're talking about is the same one I was talking about from Mestre Pastinha, but although it contrasts greatly with Mestre Joao Pequeno's list, I don't think it's necessarily an unreconcilable contradiction.

I agree with Lagosta that there are no black and white answers and you need to listen to the old Mestres. But then you get two quotes that seem to contradict and I think that's when you need to look a little deeper.

Anyone who has seen Mestre Jogo de Dentro play could easily see how a full rich game can be played using the 9 moves in Mestre Joao Pequenos book - after all it's no surprise that Armada Dupla and Parafuso are not on the list. But simpler more practical moves like Queixada or Martelo are also absent. The bigger surprise comes when you see that moves like cocorinha and resistencia aren't on the list. Hell, not even role is on there!

I think that the meaning behind the words is the most important thing. I would take Mestre Joao Pequeno's list as a guide to what the bread and butter of the game is made up of, but I think that the Mestre Pastinha quote about capoeira being infinite is alluding to what Lagosta said about capoeira not being static, it is always evolving. These two view points aren't necessarily contradictory depending on how you view them

I also think the "b" and Andarilho made amazing contributions to this discussion - Bravo!

Paz meu povo
  2006-06-20 05:28:22

I thought I just throw a few thought�s/doubts into the brew.

If you look at the references in the book written by Waldemar Reio, Capoeria Angola (a copy of which I made and sent to Brabo when I was training in Lobao's academy) he (the author) lists the basic movements of some Mestres of Capoeira Angola of the time, Mestre Pastinha included, others such as Mestre Cobrinha Verde etc etc etc Mestre Caicara for example has a heap of movement. Not only are they all differences but they all have similarities at the same time. I understood these movements to be a 'tool-kit' of tradition of each school rather than a list of the do's and don't.

For those that are interested, Pastinha�s academy was formed at time when Capoeira had been illegal and it�s practice not encouraged by the authorities. Pastinha formailsed, the bateria and movements to create one of the first what we know as an �Academy. The concept of an academy was not around before.

The movements, well���

In terms of their application it�s hard to say, damn even more confusing...

It seems to depend on who�s defining what�s is going on in the roda and who's school of Capoeira Angola it is.

I really agree with Lagosta but I believe each teacher has his parameters and some draw lines stronger than others in various ways. Also I agree with what she said about the older and old Mestres because they have been around to see what floats and what doesn't. Their knowledge is important but their experience if not more.

Between schools?

FICA is perhaps different to Joao Pequeno's School to GCAP to ACUPE to Filhos de Angola and this Baiano Capoeria De Angola what about Capoeira Angola from Rio de Janeiro?

I have found each school has there own traditions based on their founding teachers observations, experiences and the everyday realities outside the academy. Capoeira responds to the present... Horses for courses maybe? I am still curious.

On a more physical note�..

I have a distinct difficulty with writing about this stuff, but I understand the movement to comprise fundamentally of two movements, question and answer, but principally escape is the first movement, but that�s not to stop someone smacking you in the head. How does the person deal with the situation?

Exceptions�there are plenty�..
Any chance of someone grabbing the Video off Brabo (and never giving it back to him, haha) in the Pulo de Gato video when Mestre Joao Grande and Mestre Joao Pequeno are playing Apanha Laranja, what do you call that movement at the end? I�m miffed.

At the end of the day........

But I don�t believe it�s pure (Capoeira Angola), each to their own, �.and that it could be movements, grimacing stare, mocking laughter, snigger, facial expressions and a cunning use of theatre songs, protocol, style of dress, lot's of chamada, inclusion of maculele, samba de roda and whether you think capoeira is more than a well timed rabo de arraia.

Good capoeiristas have the ability play with the context of the moment�Actually it was Brabo who mentioned to me that Brasilians have this habit of turning things on it's head and the more I play capoeira the more I'm learning about this, the hard sometimes too, damn!

Whatever the other person is doing I think I matter of undoing as best you can whatever deception or treachery you face in the roda or in life and the rest is all good.

One thing for sure, there's much to be learn't....

If you ask Mestre Lobao he'll tell you...tem basante coisas nas capoeira angola e capoeira regional a aprender....(there's heaps to learn) and someone else said it�s all so subjective.

  2006-06-20 05:31:44
Mind the typo's i'm off to train...
  2006-06-21 00:30:10
Nice input Mugunza...
I was going to add to this topic the other day, I forgot what it was specifically but it was something along the lines of how there was a time where capoeira academy's didnt exist, so therefore people often just trained with a few others in a backyard somewhere. Rather than the semi-formal structured learning system that was adapted through Mestre Bimba's style and over the years with the evolving of this art (speaking solely about learning and teaching styles) Capoeira was at one stage merely an oral tradition where you watched and learned. No formal system was put into place as to how things were and therefore, what you knew was whatever you had learnt or picked up from watching others.

Perhaps the nine movements that Joao Pequeno said were probably all that he could think of at the time, or maybe the most important moves. It would be impossible to rule out other movements that were in capoeira angola because (with respect to all angoleiro Mestres) Joao pequeno wasn't the sole practitioner of Capoeira Angola and he certainly didnt invent it. (he did contribute to it's influence worldwide however)
Therefore what I guess I am going on about, and it practically re-affirms what everyone else has already said (or maybe I'm repeating stuff, or maybe I'm repeating stuff) is that there was more than one lineage from that time, which meant more than one idea as to how things were... I dont really have an added opinion here as you can probably tell... I just like being on this really cool website! :-) :-P
By the way sorry if my england and. garamar is speled rong,

Random: I have seen this one video where Mestre Joao Pequeno does a role and pins his opponent by just lying backwards on top of him. It was so well done( "O segundo encountro de capoeira angola")

Rock on people's (yeah!!!)
  2006-06-21 01:54:25
Hey Fets,

Did Brabo give you that video to watch? did you see the games with Jogo De Dentro?

  2006-06-23 16:23:24
Nice, nice, some discussion developing here ;-)

I think it's important to remember that while observation did play a large part in how and what people learned during the illegal period of capoeira, there was still direct instruction from Master to student. Academies may be a relatively new phenomenon in the capoeira world but classes (in one form or another) have been around much longer, even if there were only one or two students being taught at a time. Mestre Pastinha didn't just learn capoeira Angola by watching others play in the roda, he was taught by an African named Benedito.

Getting back to the topic about the movements of Capoeira Angola, I find it hard to believe that the nine movements on Mestre Joao Pequeno's list were all he could remember. I also don't think that he was saying that those are the only movements that can be used in the roda. After all any move "can" be used, the question is which ones "should" and "shouldn't" be used. From the little I have seen of Capoeira Angola and heard from Mestres of Capoeira Angola I would say that there is only one limit on what you should or shouldn't do in a Capoeira Angola roda, and that limit is context. If the movement is appropriate according to the context of the game at that moment then by all means do it, if not then don't! Of course the hard part is learning to read the context of the game and judging what is appropriate and when ;-p

On a side note, I think that seeing comments bounce back and forth from Wellington to Hamilton to Madrid to London on this topic really shows how well this forum can work. Big up yourselves (especially the expats keeping in touch) and big ups to those responsible for the site and forum!

  2006-06-24 12:29:34
Hey mugunza... Yeah I think I have seen that vid. It's the one with that roda (com Joao Pequeno e outro mestres) outside aye. (they play apanha laranja right?) 1 video I would like to see actually is Cordao de ouro. If you want to check out some wicked footage online check out youtube.com ( a community video upload site) Theres some wicked vintage footage on there, including Bimba himself. Use the search bar to bring up capoeira footage using keywords, (Cordao de ouro, Bimba etc) I have even posted a few on there.

These discussion are great!!!
we are all compensating each others ideas. Which means that one person alone can not come up with whole answers... just like capoeira itself, capoeira requires more than one person in the game to compensate the attacks and escapes, as with these questions, Ideas and topics.

Nice use of that word Zigue Zague... Context. I have honestly tried to use that word every day since the encounter. So great for capoeira and everyday life. Even used the word "contextual in an e-mail the other day"

Well anyways I dont know what else to add here except that capoeira rocks!!! (so does this web-site :-)
those fine words of the anon b.... "Capoeira yeah!!!"
Muito Ax'e amigos e amigas.
Talk to you sooon.
  2006-06-27 23:55:34
o meu povo que beleza,

essa capoeira com certeza!
  2006-07-01 14:04:17
beleza, beleza!
  2006-07-13 18:33:17
here you all are!
oi pessoas tudo joia?
damn you all deep up in here,is their some kind of prescription i need to join in if so,is their a doctor dre in the house? i just want to add...does anyone realise it has been raining outside?
yea and hey,if anyone sees brabo can you put out a big rasteira and tell him i need a clean shirt for training? yea mines dirty and just in case you didnt get it,its raining outside!
oh and i totally agree with everyone above yea!!! long live the queen and bigups to brabo.
oh,has anyone heard of a game called socca,saucer,soccer?
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