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  Topic: por angola e atravez
  Irons in the fire
  2008-03-26 02:05:33
Following the encounter and some of the discussions that have been going on, anyone have thoughts on the below?

'During the 20th century capoeira underwent a process of modernisation. Paramount to this development were the �Regional� and �Angola� styles developed in Bahia from the 1930s onwards by mestres (= teachers, �masters�) Bimba and Pastinha. Whilst adepts of Regional insisted on changes introduced to make capoeira more �efficient� when competing with other martial arts, angoleiros claim to stick to the traditional capoeira as much as possible. These styles were exported to other regions of Brazil were they underwent further changes. In Rio de Janeiro and S�o Paulo these styles fused during the 1960s and 1970s to the extent that many practitioners today don�t want to be classified as either �Regional� or �Angola�, but rather claim to practice �contemporary capoeira�. Others, in particular the adepts of capoeira Angola, insist that it is hardly possible to learn seriously different styles at the same time and have opted to practice only one modality, capoeira Angola.'

  2008-03-26 14:07:00
My first thought is where does this come from? Please provide the source.
  Irons in the fire
  2008-03-27 01:12:35
I think it's very well written. I was curious to see what people's thoughts are on it.

It's a touchy subject and divides the serious and not so serious one. Serious: meaning people that take themselves and or their work seriously.

Please, o berimbau ta chamando...voce pode entrar.

  2008-03-27 09:26:54
My second thought is I agree that it's well written.
My third thought is I wonder if you will answer my first thought?
  2008-03-27 16:41:42
Judicious googlewhacking leads us to http://www.capoeira-angola.co.uk/history3.html which answers Dayle's question, at least as far as the internet is concerned.
  2008-03-27 17:59:42
My fourth thought is I will shout Enigma a beer when I return.
  Irons in the fire
  2008-03-27 21:30:15
That's not the acutal source...have a look at;

'Capoeira the history of an Afro-Brazilian martial art'
Author Matthias R�hrig Assun��o (University of Essex)
Published by Routledge.

It's probably one of the best book I've read.

Feel free to comment.

  2008-03-28 09:47:28
After the encounter, which gets a double thumbs up for lushness and inspirational potency!

Angola, as practised by angoleiro's is a for me, a much different conversation than the dialouge that occurs in regional. mmm, its almost like comparing the "and one" crew with the "tall blacks".

when i imagine both, the first thing comes to mind, is that they share thematic similarities, both groups involved want to shoot hoops but the way in which they approach the hoop and how they deliver it through the basket is completely different as a result of assigning significance to different aspects of the a) the hoop[roda-winning?] and b) approaching the hoop [jogo?]

i love and 1 ballers, there flare and raw athleticism, grace and power are awesome.

but when i watch the tall blacks-playing well, i see cohesion, tight lines, as they often times play an awesome "team" game.

where regional emphasises fleuros, angola for me, after the encounter especially, emphasises the awareness, the tactics and ability to transition, and be aware at each possible transition what next movement options are available eg. each player in a team on the court-are like the angoleiro's arms, legs and head.

For me regional is filled with awesome individual "all stars" cranking out ridiculously amazing movements. And "angola" is like a slow weaving of precise exquisite (but unrehearsed!) passes leading to an alleyOOP aka cabesada...

  interupting sheep
  2008-03-29 13:47:47
I'm not sure that regional does emphasize floreios?
  2008-03-31 10:08:32
excuse my portugese spelling, my bah bah bah bad...
  on looker
  2008-03-31 13:05:32
Regional does'nt emphasize floreios. Maybe Balesko should go to more regional rodas. Who knows he/she might learn a thing or two.
  2008-03-31 19:22:07
i've jogo'ed in regional roda's, no offense, they're rad, just not my kinda game.

i like that onlooker only commented on that part of what i had to say, but didn't read the rest perhaps...? and perhaps took that singular point out of context...:o?

hows bout abit of conversation and exchange...:o)
  lost sheep
  2008-03-31 22:17:22
"where regional emphasises fleuros, angola for me, after the encounter especially, emphasises the awareness, the tactics and ability to transition, and be aware at each possible transition what next movement options are available eg. each player in a team on the court-are like the angoleiro's arms, legs and head."

even in context, this appears to me to be a gross generalisation and I beleive many of the people that play regional would disagree entirely. While there is an emphasis on floreios in some groups or individuals I think that regional was meant to be and often is practiced without floreios, these seem to belong more to showtime/contemporanium.

ps: interrupting sheep don't care about spelling.
  2008-03-31 23:35:11
There is an essay called "The Great Divide" in which someone discusses his perception of the differences between Regional and Angola. You can read it at http://www.thisbusinessofdanceandmusic.com/Articles-Capoeira_by_Shayna_McHugh.ht m

I remember also seeing a link last year or two years ago to an essay by a Contre Mestre (who is also a stuntman, I believe?) which I think discussed covered some differences. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find the link, and, most disrespectfully, I don't remember the Contre Mestre's name. Hopefully another person will be able to provide the link.

That said, the two articles helped me gain a better understanding, if only vague familiarity, of the two styles.

Perhaps they might help?
  2008-04-01 12:39:01
lol, thanks lost sheep, admittedly it was a gross generalisation! point taken.

i do however feel that regional and angola are vastly different experiences, movement content or otherwise. I did not mean to cause offense, i think i did so inadvertently by emphasising my experiences of angola from the easter weekend. my experiences of regional pretty limited, mostly
to the subgame of bengala.

and i wasn't saying that one form is more superior than the other, more that with respect to my brief experience of capoeira, and the variety of teachers i've trained with, that i am drawn (for now) to angola.

thanks for the link dayle, put heaps into perspective, cheers.
i real liked the last part of the article, that talked about the diversity that both forms bring to the art of capoeira. for me each form has its own relevance for an individual, and its up to the individual as to which is more relevant at a given time.

wot u reckon lost sheep?
  2008-04-01 15:49:32
I've found the essay I referred to. It's called "The Art of the Approach" and is by Contre Mestre Perere. It is at http://www.geocities.com/palmares_seattle/capoeiraessays.html
  persistent sheep
  2008-04-01 17:51:29
I recon most people forget that bimba was an angoleira. Also when we put our western box around 'angola' and 'regional' we are missing the point entirely. Regional as defined by Abada is different to Topazio is different to 'Cordao de Ouro' is different to 'Regional Luta da Bahia'.

I like Capoeira de Angola. I don't know why, I just enjoy it more.
  dom dom dom dom ding
  2008-04-01 21:52:38
Any further thoughts about the not the perceived differences, but respecting the differences?
  Irons in the fire
  2008-04-01 23:30:29
Do you know that Pastinha used to teach balao in his classes and there are a few pictures of Pastinha flying around the place as well.

I feel it is almost space to say that you can see floerios in all sorts of roda, angola e regional. Maybe some of them have a different objective to that of another? apart from being beautiful?

  2008-04-02 10:41:39
Kia Ora All,

I found this rare clip in which Mestre Bimba explains the diference between Capoeira Regional and Angola...Enjoy
  2008-04-02 10:41:50
  2008-04-03 15:33:30
[takes off his small plastic red nose and passes it to Matt]
  2008-04-04 12:19:15
Hey dayle

i read that essay, wowW! thanks for the share. its so good to discover a piece of writing by a capoeirsta from a completely different social space i.e. half a world away from the deep pacific, and yet still feel resonance with the ideas/observations and insights the writers putting out there.

feel like theres heaps more to learn again, RAD!

  Avid Reader
  2008-04-04 13:58:51
woot i got rickrolled!! ^_^
  Avid Reader
  2008-04-04 14:01:39
[sticks his foot out so matt can trip over it] do de do do do do
  2008-04-06 17:17:30
Hello everyone,

Interesting discussion going on. My thoughts are that a true capoeirista is a capoeirista who can adapt and play to whichever rhythm is playing and to whatever style or player he/she is faced with. I myself have come from a Regional background so my Angola skills are somewhat limited, but we still learned how to play Angola to the rhythm and for the most part, our training sessions focused on Benguela, which involves a lot of malicia like Angola. Not everyone is an acrobat, myself included, still, performances are an opportunity for a capoeirista to show off his/her best moves, whether this be a mortal or a simple bananeira, or even just their best kicks. Acrobatics are more for showmanship and to attract more students - they do look great and yet still need to be played to the appropriate rhythm like everything else.

As for me, I enjoy seeing all different groups/styles playing together, as this represents capoeira in its true capacity; a fight, a game, a representation of life and society.

  Ra maluko
  2008-04-08 21:47:23
well said Ostra
  Irons in the fire
  2008-04-08 21:55:48
Yeah great answer, thanks, Ostra.

Anyone else? The roda is open for anyone to enter
  Ra maluko
  2008-04-09 23:16:18
Hey guys just reading through this forum. this part of the first comment caught my attention

"Whilst adepts of Regional insisted on changes introduced to make capoeira more �efficient� when competing with other martial arts"

does this mean that the first regional practioneers were literally competing with other martial arts in a sporting enviroment? (I say sporting enviroment cause thats were martial artists usually settle there differences)

  Ra maluko
  2008-04-09 23:18:03
Or were they competing for popularity? hit me back.
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